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 Post subject: Re: MUSIC AND BREXIT.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:23 pm 
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Big G wrote:
Yeah, Let's have another referendum, then another when the losers of that one start moaning, then another and another etc!


That's generally what we do every few years (4 years for national-level elections).

It's called democracy.

It enables people to change their minds.

It's a good thing (within practical limits).


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 Post subject: Re: MUSIC AND BREXIT.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:17 am 
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It's like saying, ok, you voted for Brexit without knowing the repercussions, i.e.: that you'd be much poorer, worse off, etc, but sorry, that's it, you can't change your mind now, even though you're more aware of the swamp that this country will sink into. You're stuck with it, even though you were lied to by the Brexit con men such as Boris the Spider and Farage the Fake, right wing politicians who used every means available to trick you into believing that a vote to leave the EU would lead to some mythical bright new future for the country. Well,, if you bought that lie, it's far too late to change your mind now, you're stuck with it, and all the rest of us who knew better too, sadly. All you have achieved by voting us out is to diminish this country's trade, jobs, economy and standing in the world. It's a dumb vote and those who thought otherwise will find themselves on the sharp end of what it eventually fails to deliver. What a mess.


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 Post subject: Re: MUSIC AND BREXIT.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:38 pm 
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Big G wrote:
Your incorrect assumptions that I voted to leave the EU show that your blinkered views leave no room for reasonable debate! I simply believe in the freedom of democracy, didn't we fight wars for this?


Surely the only democratic solution is to allow people to vote on whether to accept the deal on offer? If the deal is not acceptable, then we must be given alternatives, and one has to be to remain.

Anything other than that would be both profoundly undemocratic and illogical.

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 Post subject: Re: MUSIC AND BREXIT.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:06 pm 
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David Too wrote:
Surely the only democratic solution is to allow people to vote on whether to accept the deal on offer?
Oddly enough, David, I wouldn't automatically agree with you there.

The reason is that we have a representative democracy, in which we elect MPs to use their own judgement to make decisions on our behalf in Parliament. The deal is that if we don't like what our MP does, we have a chance to vote them out at least every five years. Our MPs are representatives, and not delegates who have to do what the voters demand. I am sure that you will know this - but an awful lot of people don't!

So normally I am OK with my MP taking decisions on my behalf - even though I didn't vote for her. I can always try again soon to replace her!

However, in the case of Brexit, it is clear that there is no majority in the Commons for any single course of action. In that case - and only because of that - I would agree that the solution is to refer the question back to the people. I would, however, note that determining the question(s) to be asked, the options to be placed before the people, and how the result of the referendum is determined - if you have three or more options then you will never get a clear majority for any one - are themselves very difficult questions, and likely to run into the same problems as Brexit itself has.

Where our representative democracy failed was when the majority of MPs voted two years to ago trigger Article 50, without having the faintest idea of what form Brexit would take. For that alone, most of them should have been voted out at the subsequent General Election. Instead we have the ludicrous situation where the likes of Yvette Cooper and Dominic Grieve, who voted to trigger Article 50, have very belatedly discovered their cojones (YC is, after all, Mrs Balls :lol:) and are now attempting to delay or reverse things.

If I hadn't stopped voting for any of the major parties over 20 years ago, I'd stop now!


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 Post subject: Re: MUSIC AND BREXIT.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:28 pm 
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Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain and are not being given any reasonable accommodation for this, more so being completely and utterly ignored and disrespected by May's government while Northern Ireland are being allowed to stay.
My guess is that had the facts been known about Brexit and how foolish it all is, the independence referendum would have turned out very, very different.

It's accelerating the break up of the union to it's inevitable conclusion.

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 Post subject: Re: MUSIC AND BREXIT.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:59 pm 
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I don't know what's being reported over on your side of the pond, but Northern Ireland is most definitely NOT being allowed to stay in the EU. (Despite, like Scotland, voting to remain.)

The Conservatives - and their puppet-masters, the NI Democratic Unionist Party - are determined to keep the UK together. (As indeed are many folk outside of these parties.) So NI is leaving with the rest of us.

The difficulty is the land border with the Republic, which will become an EU border. The PM has promised that there will be no hard border between NI and the Republic. Quite apart from hitting big business, in the past 40 years many small businesses and ordinary folk have become very accustomed to crossing the border, often several times a day. Passport and customs checks, and customs tariffs, would kill many smaller businesses, cause a great deal of inconvenience, and would be a step back towards the time of the Troubles.

However, to have no hard border requires NI (and hence the rest of the UK) to be in a customs union with the EU. Which is something else that May promised would NOT happen - thus painting herself into a corner.

Hence the main stumbling block is the "backstop" - temporary customs alignment measures which would be put in place at the end of the transition period (eg end of 2020) to ensure no hard border, if the UK and EU have not by then agreed a trade deal. The DUP and hardline Brexiteers believe these "temporary" measures could become a customs union which lasts indefinitely.

The PM cannot risk upsetting the DUP, because without their votes, she has no majority. So Europe is being held to ransom by a group of MPs who represent only around 300,000 voters, who do not represent the majority view in NI, and who include creationists and other idiots amongst their ranks. And who insist that when it comes to Brexit, NI CANNOT be treated differently from the rest of the UK, but when it comes to women having control over their own bodies (abortion law), insist that NI MUST be treated differently from the rest of the UK.

My belief is that Brexit, if it goes ahead, will lead to an independent Scotland within 10 years, and also to a unified Ireland, but maybe not within my lifetime (I'm 62). Leaving just England and its vassal state, Wales, to imagine what might have been.


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 Post subject: Re: MUSIC AND BREXIT.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:56 pm 
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Thanks for the update, last I read it was stated pretty clearly that people born in Northern Ireland will be able to retain their EU citizenship under the deal struck by Theresa May. Mind you this was probably at the end of last year.

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 Post subject: Re: MUSIC AND BREXIT.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:32 pm 
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Ah - I see where the confusion arose.

Since the formation of the Irish Free State in the 1920s, it has always been the policy of the Irish government that anyone born on the island of Ireland is entitled to be an Irish citizen. Those born in the Republic are, by default - those born in Northern Ireland can apply for an Irish passport & citizenship (I'm not sure if that's the same thing).

This has always been recognised by the UK. Thus, people born in NI have always, since the 1920s, been able to apply for an Irish passport. This is not changing - and I'd be surprised if anyone even considered changing it. Thus someone born in NI who acquires an Irish passport will still be a citizen of the EU. (It is rumoured that many of the Brexit hardliners in the DUP - diehard Protestants who foam at the mouth at the sight of a crucifix or of the colour green - have done just that.)

Anyone born elsewhere who can acquire an Irish passport will also be an EU citizen. The Irish have seen a large increase in applications over the last couple of years. The requirement is that you must have at least one grandparent who was born on the island of Ireland, whether before or after partition in the 1920s. My wife and I each have an Irish ancestor, but unfortunately they were great-grandparents - otherwise we'd have Irish passports by now.


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 Post subject: Re: MUSIC AND BREXIT.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:33 pm 
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I like knowing I can live and work anywhere in the EU, there was always something nice about that. Not happy at all at this being taken away, especially as my countrymen never voted for it. The Titanic is sinking and our lifeboat has been taken off of us against our will, it's maddening.

The sooner Scotland grows a pair and breaks free from the grip of Westminster the better, I feel very sorry for those who are suck with them.

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