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 Post subject: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:26 pm 
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Putin has undoubtedly done great evils, notably to Chechnya and probably to many other groups and individuals, but I’m still waiting to see a persuasive analysis for why we shouldn’t be more worried about the alliances pushing Russiagate than about Putin’s threat to American Democracy.
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I had a person who worked for many years with his state Democratic Party apparatus inform me he couldn’t engage with my facts about the current state of the party because I kept using the term “Democrat Party.” I told him I wasn’t talking to him, albeit in a less confrontational manner.
Then I had two gentlemen young enough to be my offspring discussing me as if I weren’t there and telling me about myself to me for noting that even the deputy FBI director quoted by the BBC said none of the 13 indictments showed any actual effect on the outcome of the election. Which, as usual, was buried at the bottom of the inverted pyramid where maybe 5% of those reading it would reach.
Meanwhile, the entire federal election process is in the hands of the Department of Homeland Security, both parties are doing their best to keep as many eligible voters from voting as possible, and politicians are paying lip service to replacing those iffy voting machines with at least something that leaves a paper trail. But hey—those Russians were on social media under fake names!!!
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As to the embarrassment aspect, the constant yelling needs to drown out what a dying empire looks like. So many “adults” applauded the previous 16 years, they became attached to the failures. Look at the failure of our intelligence agencies. When Obama was President elect, he saved Joe Lieberman from losing his oversight role. Instead of demanding competence, “very serious people” assured critics of the move that Obama was 853 dimensions brilliant and had a plan. Name the disaster. Iraq is in Iran’s orbit. Our poodle is leaving the EU in a disastrous manner. Libya led to slave markets, a refugee crisis, and operations such as BRIICS and the new Silk Road becoming serious matters. Every self inflicted crisis involved a serious round of hippie punching. The entire directory result is Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country, not anyone backed by big money or a drooling Kennedy. The Bush family henchmen are trying to attach themselves to the Clintons.
Then of course, many of the people yelling OMG Putin are fairly stupid. Thinking through how the 17 intelligence agencies might have missed a Manchurian candidate with a fairly well known name isn’t a skill in their wheel house.
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A corollary to the “Russia didn’t really do anything” argument is that other countries had greater impact on the elections. The two countries usually cited are Israel and Mexico.
Certainly Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has shown a fondness for Donald Trump, and hardline pro-Israel donors Sheldon and Miriam Adelson poured millions into the Trump campaign. But there were also plenty of friends of Israel pushing in the opposite direction because of an authentic fondness for Hillary Clinton, or because of authentic fears of the anti-Semitic forces supporting Trump.
Does Feffer really think that AIPAC was pushing in the “opposite direction” with Clinton from the position it was pushing with Trump?
If Feffer’s level of thinking and insight into politics is to assume a significant difference between the policies of either party towards Israel, and then use that assumption as a basis to make the argument that Israel does not significantly interfere in our politics, he is disqualified from writing about foreign influence in US elections in my opinion.
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1. Emorej a Hong Kong February 18, 2018 at 8:29 am
Sleepy,
Quite right. And this is a further illustration of the illogic of Feffer’s purported rebuttals, because if allegations of excessive Israel-related influence could be rebutted by an argument that different individuals supporting different candidates were pushing in the “opposite direction”, then why wouldn’t the same analysis rebut much of the Russiagate allegations?
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Great, pointing out that Israel has influence but it can be discounted..
I’m surprised that there is little embarrassment that the USA spends on CIA+FBI+NSA (around 70 billion/year) which is about the Russian defense budget, and did not detect (and counter) Russian meddling until after the favored candidate lost.
HRC and her supporters should be angry at the CIA+FBI+NSA for not determining the Russian influence in real time.
But now we have HRC supporters speaking warmly of the CIA+FBI+NSA despite the agencies’ past records attempting to influence our Democracy and other governments world wide.
Perhaps the release of HRC’s emails damaged the candidate but maybe the candidate was already flawed in the eyes of many voters.
Are the HRC supporters arguing that there were a lot of large influences that self cancelled and a potentially very small external influence from Russia upset the balance?
They should have run a better candidate.


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I’m still waiting to see a persuasive analysis for why we shouldn’t be more worried about the alliances pushing Russiagate than about Putin’s threat to American Democracy
That’s it in a nutshell.
2016 was an embarrassing brawl between two equally deplorable candidates, their strictly-from-commercial, and insanely expensive campaign staffs, and their often deluded and/or clueless followers.
Within that context, Putin comes off more like an obnoxious kibitzer, than an actual threat to the democratic process.
Any honest reading of our history makes clear that it is the candidates and their respective parties that have damaged our democracy, and left it in shambles.
The scale of Putin and the Russians impact on the kayfabe circus that is our election cycle should be understood as similar to that of SNL’s Amy Schumer and Alec Baldwin.
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Russia interfered. The effect was so miniscule as to be </= zero.
So yelling about it is just a gargantuan case of misdirection from the fact that our intelligence agencies were used to try and influence the outcome of a presidential election. The misdirection is working a treat.
"Sir, you ran that red light"
"Officer, look at that pony over there!"
Reply ↓
1. Plenue February 18, 2018 at 4:12 pm
I think he’s correct. Because what else could it realistically be? If it was a serious attempt by the Kremlin to ‘sow discord’, it’s so small scale as to be utterly pointless. It would only make any sense if it were one small part of a much larger set of ‘interference’ operations, but there is literally zero evidence of anything else. If there were, this pathetic, flaccid thing wouldn’t be being dangled out in front of the media as some sort of “gothca!”.
Reply ↓
2. lyman alpha blob February 18, 2018 at 4:30 pm
To me it seems obvious. It’s just clickbait designed to scrape some money off the big internet platforms that don’t care to vet anything. Last I checked it wasn’t illegal since there’s clickbait on pretty much every website on the web except this one (thanks again for that!).
Unlike David’s Brock’s troll farms which were financed through a PAC and were designed specifically to influence the election, and were not a commercial enterprise at all. Those were pretty much illegal, but Brock claimed some technicality and the establishment looked the other way.
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There are a few legitimate points in the Feffer piece, but as you and others say, most of it is weak. Here for instance—
“ Now, when the very rule of law is threatened, the institutions of American democracy are arguably doing their job.”
The problem here is that the rule of law was flushed down the toilet when there was no criminal investigation of the torture policy, for instance. Brennan, a hero of the Resistance, spied on the Democrats who did the investigation and lied about it.
I don’t deny that Trump is a threat to the rule of law, but when people use this phrase they should acknowledge that some of the loudest screeches in the intelligence community about Russiagate come from people who should be in prison. There is no rule of law for high ranking American war criminals.
Reply ↓
1. Donald February 18, 2018 at 9:36 am
One other point. Feffer acknowledges that the social media effects are quite likely tiny and that the real damage came from the DNC emails. Well, tell that to the Russiagate hysterics. And the DNC emails had impact because they revealed embarrassing acts about Clinton and the DNC.
Reply ↓
1. Katniss Everdeen February 18, 2018 at 11:56 am
And the DNC emails had impact because they revealed embarrassing acts about Clinton and the DNC.
THAT really should have been the “tell” about what was to come. It wasn’t that our sacred “democracy” was blatantly and relentlessly manipulated, it was that someone told the american people about it. The “criminal” was not the manipulator. The “crime” was that the manipulation was exposed at all.
I can’t help thinking about the “tells” that are in plain sight right now. “Russian” facebook profiteering characterized as an existentially deadly “cyberattack” or “invasion” justifying nuclear retaliation. Preemptive delegitimizing of the electoral process through bogus “indictments” that can never be adjudicated or resolved. A failing economic system that can no longer be disguised with increasingly unbelievable public relations propaganda, and threatens to become unmanageable with anything less than brute force. Just to name a few.
A quote from Huey Long would seem to fit here–“Sure, we’ll have fascism in this country, and we’ll call it anti-fascism…”
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ps , I'd love to stay and chat , but not enough to stay and chat 8) :wink: :D


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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:46 pm 
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TL;DR

Pointless post.


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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:25 pm 
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Oliver Wendell Douglas wrote:
parts of conversations from elsewhere:


Putin has undoubtedly done great evils, notably to Chechnya and probably to many other groups and individuals, but I’m still waiting to see a persuasive analysis for why we shouldn’t be more worried about the alliances pushing Russiagate than about Putin’s threat to American Democracy.


Thanks for taking the time to educate us simpletons . :)

Yevgeny Prigozhin [ Евгений Викторович Пригожин ], a.k.a. "Putin’s chef" gets pretty close to President Putin .

Yevgeny is even closer to Putin than Natalia Veselnitskaya [ Ната́лья Влади́мировна Весельни́цкая ] is to him .

Yevgeny is even closer to Putin than The King of Aluminum [ Oleg Deripaska, Дерипаска Олег Владимирович ] is to Paul Manafort, and to Putin, for that matter, and The King of Fertilizer [ Dmitry Yevgenyevich Rybolovlev, Дмитрий Евгеньевич Рыболовлев ] is to DJT . :)


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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:07 pm 
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THERE'S A GREMLIN...IN THE KREMLIN....

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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:11 pm 
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Location: Kansas City: not in Kansas.
There's a gremlin in the White House.

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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:41 pm 
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Quote:
There's a gremlin in the White House.


That's an insult to Gremlins........!

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:17 pm 
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The saddness, and apparent sickness, of America is not really a new development...it seems to have been a cultural and political stigma, and built up for many years. I'm thinking of Ginsbergs' 'HOWL' poem as just one manifestation, (amongst many others,) of the deeply rooted divisions America has suffered from throughout its troubled history. To my American friends I can only offeer this advice: Dump your guns. The 21st Century is not the Wild West. Your romantic ideal of cowboys riding into town and shooting up the perceived 'bad guys' is an illusion. This is the 21st Century, things are completely different now, you don't need guns, you just need compassion, understanding and intelligence. Educate the ignorant, wake the sleeping to the reality of now...


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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:56 pm 
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Alex Harvey once said a Fender Telecaster has more penetrating power than an AK-47 !

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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:00 pm 
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Some curious "Van" people in the news have somehow or other penetrated my life in the past decade :

Alex van der Zwaan

Lisa Vanderpump

Joran van der Sloot

But even more amazing than those names is German Khan .


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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:30 pm 
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next move wrote:
Alex Harvey once said a Fender Telecaster has more penetrating power than an AK-47 !
Ah, but Pete Atkin once sang about someone who didn't know a Stratocaster from a nuclear disaster! (Lyric probably written by Clive James)


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