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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:43 pm 
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alec wrote:

As much as you guys hate May, who, by the way, never wanted a Brexit, I think "we did it before, we can do it again" is applicable to poisoning traitors, like Sergei, like Alexander or whoever else .

DO NOT BETRAY THE FATHERLAND .


Precisely. Occam's Razor. The relatively simple explanation that doesn't require too many assumptions versus the convoluted conspiracy theory that would require a vast cover-up, involving countless people (including high-up politicians and low-ranking police, forensics people, etc, etc), all assumed to have an aligned interest in the cover-up.

Craig Murray, incidentally, seems a bit too quick to spread conspiracy theories before considering relatively innocent and straightforward alternative explanations. He earlier posted that the passport photos of the two accused Russians couldn't be real passport photos as they were too "dark" and "foggy". This got thousands of retweets/likes on Twitter. But it turns out the photos Craig was looking at were ones issued by a newspaper, and not the originals, which were much clearer. So Craig then withdrew his claim (to somewhat less fanfare than his original post). https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/stat ... 5276386304

As George Monbiot commented (with reference to Craig Murray's original conspiracy post): "The frantic hunt for any clue, however weak, that might exonerate the Russian government continues". https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/statu ... 8458532864


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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:31 pm 
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As if plutonium tea wasn't enough of a warning :wink: If they wanted to kill Skripal they could have done it when he was in prison in Russia for being a traitor. They released him and exchanged him with the west. Why would they go to the trouble of killing him with such a contentious and seemingly unreliable method just weeks before staging a major world sporting event (the world cup). Doesn't make sense, they aren't that stupid. The only gainers from this are our shambles of a government. :roll:

A relatively simple explanation. Two russian Kgb agents travel to uk having obtained a visa using false 'Russian' identities carrying the most deadly nerve agent known to man in a perfume bottle. They stay in a shitty London hotel and leave a trace of the deadly nerve agent somehow in one of the rooms. They travel to Salisbury and spray the door handle of the house then go to the park having put the perfume bottle back in the box and re-shrink wrapping it. Only then to dispose of it in a bin or some bushes. The Skripals touch the door handle with the deadliest nerve agent known to man and drive off to Salisbury, visit a pub, a restaurant and feed the ducks in the park then suddenly both succumb at more or less exactly the same time to the deadllest nerve agent known to man despite having different levels of exposure and physiology. Miraculously both survive. Meanwhile the two Kgb guys head straight back to 'Moscow' having considerately left a trail of incriminating evidence for MI5.

As our Cockernee friends say, "You're 'avin a larf entya". :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:17 pm 
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I know social media has been flooded with ridicule of details such as the perfume bottle, etc, but none of these little practical details are much of a stretch, as far as the odd business of political assassination goes (remember the poison tipped umbrella, etc. It's not just Russia that does this kind of thing, but Russia certainly has form). As for the World Cup, you're absolutely right - the Russians aren't stupid. The assassination didn't affect the success of the World Cup at all. If anything the UK looked a bit weak and silly. So the royals and a few dignitaries didn't attend. Big deal - I'm sure Putin was laughing at that.

The proposed conspiracy to fabricate all this and the resultant vast cover-up this would require, on the other hand, really does require a totally different order of magnitude of far-fetched assumptions, all of which is supported by precisely no hard evidence (merely a lot of assertion and "questioning the official narrative" from celebrity conspiracy theorists on twitter, such as Craig Murray). The irony is that while they demand cast-iron "proof" (not just an accumulation of evidence) that Russia was involved, they offer nothing at all to support their own convoluted conspiracy theorising that it was all MI5/6 in league with the police and Theresa May's government and the "MSM", etc.


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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:43 pm 
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C'mon, guys. Call down. Take a breath.

Okay? It was the Russians.

.

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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:48 am 
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You don't need a 'vast cover-up' when you have D-Notices and a media which is as supine and un-questioning as ours is right now. In an incident like this the securty services are in charge and Pc Plod is just there for window dressing.

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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:42 am 
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Well, as much as the "supine" elements of the media need challenging, so does this unsupported conspiracy theorising need challenging. Ominously, it looks like the same over-generalised, over-reaching conspiriological "anti-establishment" view that the likes of Alex Jones, Steve Bannon and Roger Stone on the far right in the US (and their equivalents in the UK) have been promoting.


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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:04 pm 
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I get what people are saying and I mostly agree. Ultimately you can only play with the pieces on the board. You can't invent a narrative for lack of a coherent official one.

However, in my modest experience the Occam's razor simplest solutions apply mostly to nature and the physical laws... not neccessarily man. :lol:

Conspiracy is a thing! It has happened before! Cover ups are possible. They HAVE happened. Is that happening now? Who knows. I don't! :?

Who or what could you afford to blindly trust these days? Its a world of confirmation bias and obfuscation and corruption. By the year 2018 men know men better than they know anything else and they know exactly what buttons to push. How to misdirect, destabilize, cause doubt. Any random lawyer could teach you all about it probably! :lol:

One thing however is abundantly clear. We no longer trust our leaders in the Western world. We have been destabilized. We aren't even sure who the real bad guys are anymore. Sobering stuff. Sometimes seems like dark science fiction in the making huh?

For now I plan to just keep my eyes and ears open for lack of concrete evidence. Then again, even if we had the evidence what good would it do? When the malefactors of today are caught in their lies they seem to merely stare back and say "So what?" :?

yikes!

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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:27 pm 
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Palladium wrote:
Well, as much as the "supine" elements of the media need challenging, so does this unsupported conspiracy theorising need challenging. Challenge away dear boy https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/09/skripals-the-mystery-deepens/

Ominously, it looks like the same over-generalised, over-reaching conspiriological "anti-establishment" view that the likes of Alex Jones, Steve Bannon and Roger Stone on the far right in the US (and their equivalents in the UK) have been promoting. Oh come on, that's just risible. just asking some legitimate questions, which could be easily answered according to you. The police spokesman doing the press conference didn't even know what type of visa these two suspects had. Pretty basic stuff you would have thought. The more you let these buggers get away with, the more liberties they'll take.
You're not a spook are you ?
:wink:

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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:42 pm 
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MondoJohnny wrote:
We no longer trust our leaders in the Western world. We have been destabilized.


And Putin cannot stop gut-laughing.

He's winning a war some say isn't even happening, and doing it on a shoestring budget.

.

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 Post subject: Re: RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:44 pm 
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Geetar Homer wrote:
Palladium wrote:
Well, as much as the "supine" elements of the media need challenging, so does this unsupported conspiracy theorising need challenging. Challenge away dear boy https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/09/skripals-the-mystery-deepens/

Ominously, it looks like the same over-generalised, over-reaching conspiriological "anti-establishment" view that the likes of Alex Jones, Steve Bannon and Roger Stone on the far right in the US (and their equivalents in the UK) have been promoting. Oh come on, that's just risible. just asking some legitimate questions, which could be easily answered according to you. The police spokesman doing the press conference didn't even know what type of visa these two suspects had. Pretty basic stuff you would have thought. The more you let these buggers get away with, the more liberties they'll take.
You're not a spook are you ?
:wink:


This stuff is easy enough to challenge, Geetar. For example, the last two conspiracy claims made by the person you've cited most on this topic (Craig Murray) were quickly shown to be hopelessly wrong. Craig had posted two photos, released by Scotland Yard, of the suspects at Gatwick, each photo with exactly the same time stamp, apparently showing them occupying exactly the same space at the same time. Craig quickly concluded:

"There is no physically possible explanation for this."

He wasn't just "asking legitimate questions" - rather, he concluded that the police doctored the images. But he got it totally wrong, as explained here: https://medium.com/@Brian_Whit/how-poli ... d8150fec59

This was after Craig had already got it wrong on another claim - that the passport photos of the two suspects couldn't be real because they were too "dark" and "foggy". I don't think it's "risible" to compare this easily-debunked "anti-establishment" conspiracy theorising to what many on the "alt-right" are posting. Craig Murray's blogs are constantly circulated by these people (and by Russian state media twitter accounts, incidentally) - regardless of inaccuracy (and typically they don't bother to post Craig's later corrections).


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