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 Post subject: Re: Cameron advising May
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:03 am 
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The Citizen
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The entire thing is a pathetic disaster. I don't care how much flak I get as a result of this next observation, but 'Brexit' was voted for by people who had little, if no, idea of the complications and the disastrously negative effects it would bring to our country. We don't need Brexit, it's outmoded jingoism run rampant.

Whatever it was that pushed the vote into the 'leave' category, I suspect it was driven by bigotry and a mindless fear of the future. But those of us who are not protected by vast personal wealth will, sadly, suffer the most. The loss of jobs, blows to our NHS services, the drop in the value of the pound and rising prices at the supermarket will lower the living standards of our most vulnerable even more. But that's the 'will of the people' and it looks like we're all going to suffer the results. of our ignorance.


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 Post subject: Re: Cameron advising May
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:01 am 
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Bill Nelson wrote:
Whatever it was that pushed the vote into the 'leave' category, I suspect it was driven by bigotry and a mindless fear of the future.


Russians & misinformation.

.

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 Post subject: Re: Cameron advising May
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:24 am 
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this post may be stupid, beacuse I didnt bother reading all the posts which are no doubt inteligent.

But I saw in the BBC this morning that Major and Blair both are sugesting a new vote. That would
be good (?) as I guess people are now smartened up about voting yes or no. And the fact that former
conservative and labour prime ministers are bringing it up should be good.

I am not well versed on British politics so I add: :?:

Please dont hang, draw and quarter me...thank you...

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 Post subject: Re: Cameron advising May
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:12 am 
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A problem is, Andre, that neither Major or Blair is well-regarded here in the UK, for reasons which we don't have space to discuss :lol: Although it does illustrate that the voting divide was not along traditional party lines, which is why Parliament has been spectacularly unable to cope with the outcome.

As someone who very much wanted to remain in the EU, I would welcome another vote, and the cfhance to reverse the decision. But that's the sort of thing that enrages those who want to leave.

However, there are two, less emotive arguments for another referendum:
- it's been 2.5 years since the last one: the electorate has changed, and we all know a lot more about the topic than we did in 2016
- the UK Parliament is deadlocked: there is not a majority for any one course of action, therefore they should seek new instructions from the electorate.

However, determining what question(s) should be asked in a second referendum would be very difficult.

It seems logical to have at least three choices:
- no-deal Brexit
- Brexit according to whatever deal is agreed at that time
- remain.

The problem with that is that it virtually guarantees that none of the options will be backed by more than 50% of the voters. So, beforehand, the conditions for "winning" would have to be spelled out very carefully - and obtaining agreement on that could be just as difficult as obtaining a Parliamentary majority for any of the options.


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 Post subject: Re: Cameron advising May
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:00 am 
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Quote:
It seems logical to have at least three choices:
- no-deal Brexit
- Brexit according to whatever deal is agreed at that time
- remain.


This is the only fair way to have a second referendum, but in order to have a chance of a clear result, you would also have to give a second choice. How this was then combined with the first choices to get a 'majority' result is open to debate. If you eliminated the lowest polling first choice and added the second choice votes to the remaining two, you could find the eliminated option was the most popular second choice, so that wouldn't seem fair. If you added the second votes to the first votes, you could still end up with no clear winner. At least either way you would get a more accurate representation of the publics view.
This was never a black and white choice and should not have been presented as such. The result of the negotiations was never going to be liked by the majority of the public either, so all that can be done is disappoint as few people as possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Cameron advising May
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:51 pm 
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james warner wrote:
This is the only fair way to have a second referendum, but in order to have a chance of a clear result, you would also have to give a second choice. How this was then combined with the first choices to get a 'majority' result is open to debate.
The problem is that with the three choices that I described, two of them are for "leave". So the Leave supporters would pick them as their two choices, and many Remain supporters would have no second choice. Virtually hands victory to "leave".

Even more choices on the paper would be getting too complicated.

I have seen that someone suggested two separate votes, a couple of weeks apart. The first simply simply ask "leave or remain". If the result was "remain", then there wouldn't be a follow-up. If the result was "leave", then there would another vote two weeks later asking which type of leave.

But this is getting complicated and expensive. To have another vote of any sort would also require Parliament to pass legislation, which won't happen unless there is some (long overdue) cross-party collaboration. May is dead against it, and seems hell-bent on her "my deal or no deal" blackmailing approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Cameron advising May
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:16 pm 
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BobK wrote:
What is the Labour parties view on Brexit?


Pretty much anything anyone interprets it to be if it means a vote for Labour. Corbyn and his front bench clowns would be better off employed at Barnum & Bailey.


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 Post subject: Re: Cameron advising May
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:46 pm 
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amok wrote:
BobK wrote:
What is the Labour parties view on Brexit?


Pretty much anything anyone interprets it to be if it means a vote for Labour. Corbyn and his front bench clowns would be better off employed at Barnum & Bailey.


True. And a troupe of actual clowns, with red noses, flipper feet, and bullhorns would cause less damage than the party in power, who instigated and grossly mismanaged this catastrophe.

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 Post subject: Re: Cameron advising May
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:20 pm 
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IMO the Labor party don't have a pair of balls between them. They were called to join the SNP and the Welsh party for a vote of no confidence in the current regime and declined....pathetic and cowardly.
If there is to be another referendum on the EU it should simply be a yes/no question, it's not complicated.

As for Scotland, we need to break free from this madness and can you truly blame us for wanting to.

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 Post subject: Re: Cameron advising May
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:50 pm 
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next move wrote:
IMO the Labor party don't have a pair of balls between them. They were called to join the SNP and the Welsh party for a vote of no confidence in the current regime and declined....pathetic and cowardly.


No point in calling a vote you can't win yet. It would just rally the Tories and the Dup would support them :roll: It's just gesture politics the timing has to be right

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